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#21728: "Safeguards to prevent poor bids (e.g. bidding Ultimo without the Pagat)"
rejected: Die Entwickler denken, dass es keine gute Idee ist, oder dass das Verhältnis von Aufwand zu Nutzen zu hoch ist
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In one of my games, I was partner to someone who called "Ultimo", only, neither of us actually had the Pagat in our hands. It appears that this is not breaking a rule of the game, but it seems that it would be good if a player without the Pagat was warned when trying to bid Ultimo. Maybe a pop up asking: "Are you sure? You do not have the Pagat" or something along those lines.• Welchen Browser benutzt du?
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Jimblefredberry • Dieser Vorschlag wurde von den Entwicklern noch nicht untersucht:
27. Jul 2020 15:45 • I'm not sure if the Ultimo bid is ever used for signalling, or if calling Ultimo and not holding the Pagat is usually just a bad idea.
LaszloK • Die Entwickler denken, dass es keine gute Idee ist, oder dass das Verhältnis von Aufwand zu Nutzen zu hoch ist:
27. Jul 2020 16:10 • I'd say about 80-90% of ultimo announcements are made holding the pagat. The other 10-20% are situations like:
Declarer: 8 (or 9) trumps, pass
Partner: (holding both high honours) Trull, ultimo, pass
Thus not only announcing ultimo (which will be successful) but also indicating holding both high honours (since otherwise they wouldn't know that the declarer holds the pagat) and thereby potentially opening the door for further announcements.
Or
(In a yielded game or accepted invitation)
Declarer: 8 (or 9) trumps, pass
Partner: (the yielding/inviting player, holding 5+ trumps) Ultimo, pass
This works because if the declarer had a high honour, they would be expected to announce trull with 5+ trumps, thus they must have the pagat. Trull therefore won't work, but ultimo very likely will. And it is true that the declarer can expect 5+ trumps on the partner's hand anyway (they shouldn't have yielded/invited otherwise), but it's better to leave the announcement to the partner regardless, in case they, too, have 8 or 9 trumps and run the risk of preventing the ultimo themselves.
Or even
(In a yielded game or accepted invitation)
Declarer: Pass
Partner: (the yielding/inviting player, holding two honours) 8 (or 9) trumps, trull, pass
Declarer: (holding 4+/3+ trumps) Ultimo, pass
Here the partner's trull announcement signals the pagat: the declarer is supposed to announce trull with 5+ trumps, so the partner's trull announcement is basically saying "I know you do have a high honour because I have the two others". The declarer is then expected to announce ultimo if they have enough trumps to do so - or not, in which case the pagat will be led early, while the high honour is still there to take it, to ensure trull.
The only announcement that is legal but not available on the interface is XXI-catch while holding the XXI. :) That never makes sense. (But the XXI-catch announcement brings up a confirmation dialog even when it is available because it is so extremely seldom that it can be announced.)
Declarer: 8 (or 9) trumps, pass
Partner: (holding both high honours) Trull, ultimo, pass
Thus not only announcing ultimo (which will be successful) but also indicating holding both high honours (since otherwise they wouldn't know that the declarer holds the pagat) and thereby potentially opening the door for further announcements.
Or
(In a yielded game or accepted invitation)
Declarer: 8 (or 9) trumps, pass
Partner: (the yielding/inviting player, holding 5+ trumps) Ultimo, pass
This works because if the declarer had a high honour, they would be expected to announce trull with 5+ trumps, thus they must have the pagat. Trull therefore won't work, but ultimo very likely will. And it is true that the declarer can expect 5+ trumps on the partner's hand anyway (they shouldn't have yielded/invited otherwise), but it's better to leave the announcement to the partner regardless, in case they, too, have 8 or 9 trumps and run the risk of preventing the ultimo themselves.
Or even
(In a yielded game or accepted invitation)
Declarer: Pass
Partner: (the yielding/inviting player, holding two honours) 8 (or 9) trumps, trull, pass
Declarer: (holding 4+/3+ trumps) Ultimo, pass
Here the partner's trull announcement signals the pagat: the declarer is supposed to announce trull with 5+ trumps, so the partner's trull announcement is basically saying "I know you do have a high honour because I have the two others". The declarer is then expected to announce ultimo if they have enough trumps to do so - or not, in which case the pagat will be led early, while the high honour is still there to take it, to ensure trull.
The only announcement that is legal but not available on the interface is XXI-catch while holding the XXI. :) That never makes sense. (But the XXI-catch announcement brings up a confirmation dialog even when it is available because it is so extremely seldom that it can be announced.)
Jimblefredberry • Die Entwickler denken, dass es keine gute Idee ist, oder dass das Verhältnis von Aufwand zu Nutzen zu hoch ist:
29. Jul 2020 12:51 • Wow, what a detailed response! Really interesting to read about these situations.
I still think that it could be useful to have a warning on the bid, for new players. I am not saying you would disable bidding Pagat if you do not hold it, as there are reasons for this as you rightfully point out! Just something making sure that the player definitely wants to bid Ultimo.
I still think that it could be useful to have a warning on the bid, for new players. I am not saying you would disable bidding Pagat if you do not hold it, as there are reasons for this as you rightfully point out! Just something making sure that the player definitely wants to bid Ultimo.
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